Like many of you, I suspect, I have been wondering who Jesus Christ would have
liked least, Africans or homosexuals. Most of the available evidence
suggests He would have found it a pretty close call, all things considered.
By “available evidence”, I mean the most eminently flexible of texts, the
Bible.
I had intended to take advice and guidance from the 2008 Lambeth Conference,
that convocation of extravagantly bearded men in purple dresses, but it was
like soliciting advice from a tub of margarine. When an issue of principle
hove into view, the prelates ducked and pretended it hadn’t been raised at
all. I don’t know what our Lord would have made of that. I suspect He would
have sniggered and then maybe headed off to the wilderness once again.
Certainly, bits of the Bible seem pretty clear on the issue of homosexuality -
smite, smite and smite again until there are no buggers left standing, seems
to be the general gist. I refer you to Corinthians and Romans, for starters.
This is the view of that upstanding Christian Henry Luke Orombi, the
Archbishop of Uganda, who boycotted the conference in case he had to take
communion somewhere near a poof, or somewhere near someone who didn’t mind
poofs. “I do not think there is a debate,” said Orombi. “When God gives His
word, you either take it or leave it.”
Well, quite, a good point well made. The trouble is, God also made his
position pretty clear about black people in the curse-of-Ham passage in
Genesis. Or, at least, that is what a very large number of Christian church
leaders thought back in the 19th century, to the extent that in the Church
of the Latter Day Saints, for example, black people were not allowed to be
ordained as bishops for many years.
Today the supposed message of the curse of Ham has about as much relevance to
the wider world as a meeting of the General Synod and is cleaved to only by
a few wacko evangelical bigots storing up their cans of weedkiller in an
Oklahoma basement. This, however, is the problem when you follow Orombi's
somewhat literal interpretation of what God likes and doesn't like. Orombi
has extended his attack from homosexuals to Rowan Williams, the Archbishop
of Canterbury, and indeed the entire edifice of the Anglican church, which
he has called a "remnant of British colonialism". A remnant of British
civility and decency, might be more to the point.
I cannot see our Lord getting on too well with Orombi, either. This pig-headed
and vengeful cleric has conducted a campaign of persecution against the one
decent bishop – or former bishop – his country has. Christopher Ssenyonjo, a
heterosexual who believes that the church should at least talk to queers,
has been vilified, defrocked and even threatened with arrest by Orombi for
challenging his diktat.
Meanwhile, the godforsaken branch of the Anglican communion in Nigeria has
just thrown its weight behind a government act that outlaws both
homosexuality and indeed anyone who has a good word to say about
homosexuality. Get caught listening to a Judy Garland CD in downtown Lagos
and you could find yourself in prison for five years, with the local
Christian church entirely in favour of your punishment.
The Anglican church has accustomed itself lately to worrying far too much
about schisms and too little about the notion of what it stands for and what
it represents. The bishops gathered in Canterbury might have had their
memories tweaked to this effect when, last week, one of the Pope’s little
minions, one Walter Kasper, sent them the following message: homosexuality
is “disordered behaviour that must be condemned”. Kasper then chucked in a
couple of broadsides about women as well, just in case anyone thought the
Catholic church was merely homophobic and not a proud bastion of misogyny,
too.
The first schism was no bad thing, the bishops might consider. And a second
one might be just as uplifting.
* * * * *
One thousand British Gas middle managers were herded into a conference centre
in Birmingham and forced to listen to Jimmy Carr tell jokes as part of the
company’s strategy to ensure that its employees suffer the same levels of
misery as their benighted customers. Many couldn’t take it; later there were
punch-ups and projectile vomiting as the managers found a way to express
their inchoate rage. The event cost £250,000 and was intended to provide
employees with a framework to explain to customers why their company had
just hiked prices by 35%.
Those energy supply experts Lawrence Dallaglio and Steve Rider were also
booked to address the throng and there was a champagne reception and
unlimited amounts of beer and wine. Perhaps that was the unconscious message
the bosses wished to impart: that the only way one might accept the blind
cheek of British Gas’s price rise was to be rendered insentient by
industrial quantities of alcohol. British Gas has doubled its prices inside
four years; Sam Laidlaw, its chief executive, trousers nigh on £2m each
year. Watching Carr look pleased with himself is, I suppose, a small price
to pay.
Pretty clued up
Let us all make a pledge to take our beautiful actresses more seriously,
almost as seriously as they take themselves. Last week Greta Scacchi
complained that she was not taken remotely seriously in her 1980s heyday as
a consequence of shedding her clothes in every film in which she appeared.
Now Keira Knightley is worried people think she’s stupid because she didn’t
go to university, and insists on telling interviewers she is working her way
through Albert Speer’s biography and the collected works of Germaine Greer.
Oh, Lordy – girls, relax; you have nothing to prove. You are both incredibly
clever and talented actresses and we take you very seriously indeed. Now, if
you could just undo one more button on that blouse . . .
Stop me if you've heard it before . . .
Academics from somewhere called Wolverhampton University have discovered the
oldest British joke, a one-liner that predates even Jimmy Carr’s material.
Here it is. What hangs at a man’s thigh and wants to poke the hole that it
has often poked before? Answer: a key. Cue guttural uproarious laughter,
burst ribs etc. The joke dates from the 10th century and is depressing for
two reasons. First, while we often believe the past to be gilded with a sort
of raw dignity and seriousness, it’s clear that your average Anglo-Saxon
from the Dark Ages had the wit and mentality of Roy “Chubby” Brown. Second,
it seems that men wore key fobs dangling down from their trouser belts. Soon
they will discover Norman furry dice and the past will never be the same
again.
* * * * *
How come David Miliband is only a Scotsman’s scowl away from being prime
minister? His ascent has been so rapid and so apparently effortless.
The answer may lie in a story that circulated about a previous Labour leader.
It is said that on the eve of the 1997 general election, Satan appeared
before Tony Blair and offered him a bargain. “What is it?” Blair asked the
Antichrist.
The Devil replied: “I will give you not just this general election, Mr Blair,
but three general elections with crushing majorities. In return, however, I
will claim the souls of you and your wife, your children and any subsequent
children you have.” Blair listened to this, narrowed his eyes and said: “Um
. . . okay . . . what’s the catch?”
David: "But Sharon, those things aren't based on love and consent like both heterosexual and homosexual unions can be ..." So I guess God doesn't have a problem with adultry either! After all, they are both consenting ... God hates sin but loves the sinner. Only We don't get to decide what sin is.
Charles, Calne, Wiltshire
What a thing to say about Jesus Christ, who came into the world to save sinners, whatever colour creed or nationality.
However, the bible makes clear that although He loves sinners, He hates sin, and cannot condon it. The trouble is today that nobody likes the word sin.
Mrs Margaret Elward, Bridgend, Glam
Sharon: "Jesus didn't say anything about rape or paedophilia either." But Sharon, those things aren't based on love and consent like both heterosexual and homosexual unions can be. What's at its core? That's what you people really need to focus on, not dubious scripture or naturalistic fallacies.
David Jones, Loughborough, UK
JC would have loved homosexuals. Right, right?
Andrew Milner, Karuizawa, Japan
Jesus didn't say anything about rape or paedophilia either.
People shouldn't quote the bible when they haven't properly studied and exegeted it.
The real issue here is that people want a Christianity that fits with how they want to live and not how God the creator intended it to be.
Sharon, London,
I suppose it would be pointless to point out to Rod Liddle that not all Africans are black. I'm assuming by Africans he means black, to put it politically correctly. And can we just stop with all the race issues! It's getting a bit redundant. Aren't people used to us by now?
Miriam, London, UK
There seems to be a large number of people making comments on this thread as though Jesus/god(s)/spirits etc are real entities.
Until you grow up and realise that we have to live together in the real world, no-one other than your fellow fantasists is going to take a single word you say seriously
John Dale, Sunderland,
"So, what did Christ Jesus teach about same gender sexual relations?"
Nothing! Not a single mention - can't have featured in his list of top ten sins then! Top of the list for Jesus' condemnation seems to have been religious people imposing too many laws on others yet failing to love!
andrew holden, oxford, uk
Your comment shows you do not know Jesus in your heart or from the Bible otherwise you would know how he loves them...as us all equally. He does not like the wrong things any of us do, and knowing our penalty would be death, came and paid our fine for us. Repent believe in Him and you will be saved.
Pam, Cheltenham, England
I'm saddened by this article, how so out of touch about the person and character of God the writer is. Plucking bits from the bible is not helpful...... If you are serious about knowing then read it all! Also to see Jesus don't look at fallible men and outward appearances, rather look to the heart
Pam, Cheltenham, England
To the bigots out there. The hate filled wonders with nothing better to do than criticise and judge. To those who consider yourselves so superior and so moral. To those who cannot abide your fellow man...
Jesus loves you.
Who did you think I was writing to? We all have prejudices to fight.
Nathan, Cambridge, UK
Bigoted black heterosexist African bishops could also pass for white if they only chose to use some powerful skin lighteners & paid attention to their manners & diction, that's the sort of reasoning you lay yourself open to when you claim homosexuality is a conscious choice and a sin.
Paul G., London, UK
Such a pity missioneries converted so many Africans. Converts tend to be literal believers in the ancient texts and more fanatical. Better to stick with the old gods and have a good old dance round the camp fire.
iain rae, tunbridge wells, u.k.
*anyway* moving to something more important, I'm increasingly worried about all the Christians who are headed for the lake of burning fire because they eat prawns: "Leviticus 11:12: Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you." We have to get the word out!
Randal Oulton, Toronto, Canada
Liddle is clueless in regards to the Bible and Christianity. Gal 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Jesus did more for equality (women & minorities) than anyone. Liddle perverts the truth.
Bryan Prince, California, US
Why worry about what the "Church" thinks, and proclaims what is the right path to take with your life. A homosexual is, if you believe that god created all living things, is of God´s design. Those of us who are not religious should respect the needs and dreams of these fellow human beings.
Jim Wills, Brisbane, Austalia
I am also not Christian Gay or Black but a victim of the family law system who's effect not only is devistating on my family but with others has such a negative impact on society as a whole. the clergy of all denominations should take a lead in this you would listern to Geldof on Africa now tryDads
Dave Farmer, Broxbourne, England
The Bible does not say to hate any one just to condem the things they do If you can not grasp the concept I would butt out.
I don't see why they should listen to you anymore then you should should be forced to listen to them. Why do lefties think they have the right to tell everyone else what to do
Caleb Wade, Melbourne, Australia
Even if every single verse of the Bible unambiguously condemned homosexuals to eternal damnation in the pits of hell why would that be a reason to excuse bigotry?
bob, London, UK
In Lesley White's article about David Bailey on 3 August ,she quotes Bailey as saying (on P21) "never worn a suit in my life".
This is incorrect.
David's suits were made by father "Bilgorri of Bishpsgate".
Nicky Haslam introduced David and I remember meeting him in the shop in 1962 (I was 16).
Brian Bilgorri, Farnham Common, Bucks, UK
Probably both, if they were journalists.
Dave, Dundee, Scotland
In the same bible our Lord said, " Do not cast your pearls before swine..." People will always do what pleases them.
Homosexuality is not the issue, but rather sexual immorality. What is clear is that as stated one day will come when anyone who chooses to sleep with his dog will be mainstream
Richard r, London, England
Unfortunately Mr. Liddle, the bigot who hates is YOU. You demean those African bishops because you do not recognize their human rights, and you do not care about the genocide and hatred they are defending their people against. Sex is the only issue that matters to you.
Mares, Kalamazoo, MI US
'In times of change learners inherit the earth while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists' (Hoffer) - a matter of choice, let them. even catholicism and their view of the bible changed over centuries if anglicans dont want to, their choice.
Thomas, Loughborough, UK
Are you serious? The Jesus of the Bible would have loved these as he does even now love you.
My question is this, would Jesus love my ugly attitudes tword others, my lack of loving understanding of who Jesus is more or less than, lets say, yours/
Donna, Litchfield, USA
What do the one-eyed preachings of a foreign religious leader in this near-secular world matter? We, as a society, have no issue with homosexuality and defend them, by law, in the face of adversity. If that goes against this guys perspective, his congregation will welcome him back I'm sure. We won't
James Cullup, Oxford,
Haven't these records of late iron age, middle eastern, tribal belief and behaviour, outlived their usefulness?
Time to move on humanity, and take responsibility for ourselves! If there is a god, then she would presumably approve.
paul newbold, sheffield, UK
What an odd question. My understanding of Jesus Christ is that he was completely non-judgemental so would have disliked neither for simply being who they are, but may have told them to change what they knew to be wrong. The question says more about the questioner...
Tricia Moore, Plymouth,
You cant have it both ways.
If Evolution is true then homosexuals born as such must be the new evolutionary step.But then if it is sugested God created them you bring in creation.But God created man and woman.Unless of course you making up your god /rules as you go along ,for self justyfication.
G Blezard, london, uk
It is a common tactic to tie anti-homosexual sentiments to the struggle for racial and ethnic harmony..hence the clever jibe about Africans. One is an issue of a choice of sexual preference, the other pertains to one's biological being. They are not one and the same thing.
kiarie, Ulm, Germany
Liberals are the scourge of society and their spineless anything goes attitude will see laws eventually passed whereby one can marry ones dog at your local town hall.
Not a society I look forward to.
Michael, London, England
If God is truly concerned about humankind He must get very cross with those who insist that a contradictory compilation of ancient texts, many of them murderous, are His revelations.
If we knew more about the Bible, we would give it less credence.
tony peterson, kendal, UK
Im not a Christian/Gay/Black, i therefore believe I am a neutral but didnt Jesus die for all of mankind's sins?
If that is the case, keep on sinning, right? Doesn't make any sense to me.
Barclay, Brighton,
Ezhi, you say odd things. Enough said!
Mr Liddle, you write extremely well and you entertained me with good argument and common sense.
Personally, I can't see your Lord getting on well with Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair but I'm sure that he/she will make up his/her own mind.
Marc, Paris, France
Mr Liddle obviously has near zero sympathy with orthodox Christianity, and writes scathingly and uninformatively about it. Show that you need to have at least a little love and respect for a subject to write well about it.
Bernard O'Callaghan, Chorley , Lancs
Pretty funny stuff, but mate what do you have against Jimmy Carr? I mean one arbitrary reference I understand, but two totally unrelated ones? And come on, leave Keira Knightley alone.
Bobby, Finland,
At the stroke of the midnight hour when the world sleeps Africa will awake to life and freedom and a soul of a continent long suppressed will find utterance
Sam Adeyiga, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Alan Heaton - God isn't too keen on this lot either:
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars -- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death" Rev. 21:8
Chris Wiliams, Bridgend, UK
The truth about religion is easy to solve
Gather the religiuos leaders then get one of them to ask god
Then wait for the answer
Then the rest of us can get on with our lives
John Aspley, nuneaton,
Captivating article but the curse of Ham does not deal with the dark skinned race. African race is meant to have decended from Cush. So your interpretation is misleading. More also Jesus was not white but dark skinned. Jesus will love anybody that does God's will. No one is perfect.
Adrian Adeniran, London, UK
I get so tired of claptrap like Liddle's in this piece. The Bible does NOT treat homosexuality as a worse sin than others. Noah's curse on Ham in Genesis 9:25ff was NOT directed at blacks. STOP MISREPRESENTING THE BIBLE! That's as self-serving as those you criticize, Mr. Liddle.
Andy, Toronto, Canada
we have absolutely no clear evidence that what was so called written in the Bible was in fact the words of Jesus or in fact Christ. The stories within them were passed down and rewritten and ficticious parts added or amended. Learn to accept people and the good contribution they make to society
Mike, Barcelona, Spain
Anglicanism is the via media. It is NOT African nor is it American. The 'clue' is in the name ergo "civility and decency".
African bishops have learned the lesson of post-colonial guilt well. The objective now is as many wealthy western parishes as they can grab.
Kathleen Scott, Bristol,
Rod, you are correct. I try and keep my Christian faith personal. I try and think what Christ would have wanted. Church systems like the size of the Anglicans just politicize the religion and religion generally.
ian payne, walsall,
Rod, that is truly brilliant writing.
Michael Ardern Mason, Heskin, England
Christians eh? what a bunch of suckers
Ben Collins, Belfast, Ireland
Someone said recently that since Jesus was following in the steps of previous Jewish prophets there is no reason at all to believe that he was addressing his message to non Jews. Surely if he intended to include non Jews he would have said that he was now addressing all of humanity? He did not.
William Garrett, Harrow,
Going by the law it would be fathers he liked least as India Knights has revealed what Rockerfeller has just gone through with his Daughter is replicated everyday for the mere mortals like us. Equality and fairness should apply to all man, men or women old or young from any corner of the planet!
Dave Farmer, Broxbourne, England
Some of you need to look up the word LIBERAL, it doesn't mean left-wing (if you're American) or right-wing (if you're European).
JH, London, UK
Well done. I can't recall the last time i agreed with anything you last said. But your words on the current church 'crisis' summed up the blatant hypocrisy emanating from these god nuts perfectly. I don't do religion but surely Jesus said God loves everybody or am i missing something?
anthony, Brum,
The Anglican Church has been on the road to self destruction for more than 30 years when the Episcopal Church USA ordained the first female priests...a theological impossibility. The journey along this road of moral relativism, biblical revisionism, and sexual hedonism has now been completed.
Stephen, El Paso Texas, USA
We have no idea what someone living 2000 years ago thought about things he didn't speak of. For all we know, Jesus may indeed have hated homosexuals, and Africans, as much as he hated unbelievers. Prophets always seem to hate somebody.
John B, Middlesbrough, England
Sergey, the Bible isn't clear in any condemnation of homosexuality. St Pauls epistles use Greek terms which are open to translation in more than one way, the Old Testament passages in context refer to homosexual prostitution, the place rather than the act or are again unclear.
Ted, Salisbury, UK
Ham was cursed by his father, Noah - Jesus broke all curses on the cross. Ham's not the progenitor of the black race, his father Cush (from which comes Cushite in other Bible passages) is the progenitor of the black race. So your argument/comparison is so defective that the conclusion is false.
Akin, Oxford, UK
It is curious how much impotent mouth-frothing liberals indulge in when faced with questions of religious belief. Why, one wonders, are they so exercised? Is it because they are not liberal, in fact, and hate disagreement or is it because they find themselves convicted of sin?
Austin Scott, Chicago,
It is quite clear who Jesus least liked. The Money Changers and the Pharisees.
Alan Heaton, Frankfurt, Germany
Frankly the CofE should get rid of all africans, tories, heterosexuals and, err........ Christians.
That should solve its problems.
Geoff M, Birmingham, England
The most disgusting aspect of religion is those who insist on being male dominated and keep members of the female sex "in second place".
This should be sorted out as a priority Islam,Roman Catholics etc.
It has now been proven the most influential personality in Christianityb was Mary Magdalene.
james allen, manchester, england
The Bible says "if thine eye offend thee cut it out" but we don't take it literally. All ancient text is man-written and translated interpretively. how many of these "believers" avoid pigmeat - the Bible says you should. Bunch of hypocrits - who needs a religion that doesn't love all humankind?
David Taylor, Brighton,
I have vowed never to criticise White people that talk straight against the Black race. In fact, I believe your kind of White men will heklp my people more than the majority of today's White hypocrites who pretend to say nice things about Blacks even when there is nothing niceat all to say!
Ezhi Opfu, London, UK
I fail to understand what the anti-gay fuss is all about. Christ Himself never spoke about homosexuality and as far as I am concerned Christ's word is all that matters.
Chris, London, UK
About "love" and "hate". If you, for example, refuse to affirm heavy drinking, it doesn't mean, that you hate poor alcoholics, even if they feel offended and angry with you "acophobic" position. If you encourage person to drink, it doesn't mean, that you love this person.
Sergey, Moscow, Russia
There's so much wrong with the world. Disease, famine, debt, genocide, kidnapping, civil war, homosexualiity. Well done to the church for trying to make it all better.
Maybe they should add a commandment, 'Thou shalt not be gay', as it is so important to them, and possibly one about shrimp too.
glyn, telford,
Everything evolves in this world.Christianity has split before. It won't be SUCH a tragedy now for the Anglican Chruch to split.It may even be for the BETTER. Canterbury can always hope that the African Anglican Church may someday see the light. And the A.A.C. may hope that one day Canterbury may..!
San Ying, Montreal, Canada
Nice one Rod. That's an interesting perspective on this whole sorry affair. My intuition suggests that Jesus, if teaching today, would have been supportive of any loving consensual relationships because the essence is good. Who'd actually want a god who would reject something like that?
David Jones, Loughborough, UK
Come on Rod accept it, Liberals and Bible Believing
christians cannot agree, better to separate amicably and
form TWO Anglican-Communions and see which one
flourishes.
Philip, Dorset, UK
The Jewish faith, Christian faith and Islam are all eastern born religions.Most people from that part of the world are slightly darker than whites, yet Christ is depicted as White. WHY?????????????????????????
joe shah, stanmore,
Aurora in London: To a Christian, it's not a question of whether you are "offended" by homosexuality, it's whether Jesus would have been. It seems unlikely he would have rejected anyone regardless of any worldly attribute. And coming from the Middle East, I believe he would have been "black" himself
Carol, Derbyshire,
Sergery, the Bible is clear that eating shell fish is an abomination, but I don't see people boycotting fishmongers. The Bible talks about 'slaves' not disobeying their masters, does this mean that slavery should never have been outlawed? Look for the love, instead of looking for hate.
Andy, Hampshire, UK
I think you need to be aware of a couple of things here. Firstly, a bishop in Mormonism is not the same thing as a bishop any where else.He is the equivalent of a vicar or priest in other churches, and it is an unpaid position. Secondly, blacks were not even considered full members until 1978.
Elizabeth Charlton, Canterbury, Kent, UK
You just don't get it Mr. Liddle!
If you're as liberal as you claim, then realise that homosexuality is not and CANNOT be to everyone's taste or liking. It is therefore wrong of you to cast aspersions on those who don't share your so-called "liberated view". Show some respect pls!
Aurora, London,
1.Bible says nothing about Ham's skin color. So those racists were very far from literally interpretation. Bible says very clear about homosexual behavior. So, we can't compare this two issues.
2.It seems to me, that author distorts opponent's point of view.
Sergey, Moscow, Russia
God actually could not love either the Archbishop or Homosexuals more than he does now. No need for choosing between these two groups for God. His love is proven in Christ.
Those in the church who are anxious re homosexuality are concerned that homosexuals are sinning blindly and are in danger.
J Ingram, Oxford,
IF the teachings of rome ar to be believed jesus was black or dark skinned, and fo rhis viewson homo's well who knows, but the stories of all male last supper, the drak side wants us to believe an anti - female stance. As with all teachings, controll the peasants is the key.
michael joseph, cahersiveen.adams towns, madness
Jesus would be more concerned about putting the Sermon on the Mount into practice (The hungry will be satisfied. The peacemakers being the children of God), rather than anything about gay men or sons of Ham.
Scott Redding, Coventry,
Does Mr Liddle know the mind of God, that he he describes an organisation as 'godforsaken'?.
Oluseun, Norwich,
Anglicans are not doing what they should do at times like this; trying to discern what Jesus taught about a subject, after all being a Christian is being a follower of Christ is it not? So, what did Christ Jesus teach about same gender sexual relations? Is He not our definitive source of knowledge?
Jennifer Hobson, Plymouth, England
As a Catholic, I'm proud of the Church's anti-poverty and green campaigning carried out with and on behalf of the poor and marginalised regardless of creed or colour. But its view of gay people, women, those in second marriages etc is shameful. It isn't Christ-like and it isn't Catholic.
Elinor Parry, Chichester,
They say that what (gay) people do in their bedrooms is none of our business and should stay there. True. Might we ask for the same approach : religious people to do their business in their churches and leave it there!
Cath, Washington, D.C.,
"Now Keira Knightley is worried people think she’s stupid because she didn’t go to university"
Ah, such a middle-class worry. The landed gentry never bothered at all with what other people perceived to be their intelligence. Only middle-class insecurity could lead to such pathetic worries.
Stephen Myles St. George, Vancouver,
Great stuff, Rod. Lots of giggles!! The Church of Bigotry is thriving, unfortunately.
Paul Freeman, London, England